Empathic ADHD Therapy & Coaching with Jordan Schatz, the ADHD Guru

Welcome to the Autistic Techie podcast. I'm your host, Shae Belsky, an autistic software engineer and tech lead.

We're going to dive into the world of tech careers from a neurodivergent perspective, interviewing guests from all

different corners of the industry

and empowering you to be a better self-advocate.

Welcome back to Autistic Techie. I am thrilled today to be joined by Jordan Schatz, the ADHD guru

and an ADHD therapist. I think there's a really big miss as far as more therapists being open and

honest about their neurodiversity, and also balancing

that with social media, as Jordan has 20,000 TikTok followers, a very impressive feat that I am in awe of.

I'm really excited today to talk about their perspective,

in therapy, working with ADHDers one-on-one, and also balancing their own mental health, their own personal journey. And I cannot

wait to dive right into it. Jordan, welcome to Autistic Techie. Thank you for having

me, man. This is, this is really exciting. I appreciate you, uh, having me on. Of course. Can you tell

me a little bit about how you got started in your own journey of self-advocacy, what inspired or prompted you

to come out and be more open about your neurodiversity? I think, uh, you know, when I, I started school

to be a counselor. And before, before this, I was ADHD coached

myself once I found out more about ADHD. And

then once I started to post

the things that my coach would pass down to me on TikTok, uh, people

really started to resonate with it and it picked up. And I think once I realized that I'm not a,

like, I'm so not alone in this helped me to know that, like, there are a lot of people like

me out there. And so unmasking and advocating is not as dangerous as it once sounded like when I was

younger. That has to be validating to be- Yeah, it does. ... able to put yourself out there. It's huge.

It does, yeah. Yeah. I was just talking with somebody about, like, empathy.

Like, someone else can be listening to you and being like, "He gets it. He understands me. He knows where

I've been," or something like that, "and can actually

help me with, whether that's short-form content or longer-form content." Yeah. I mean, and with coaching, right, like, it's,

it's all, it's, it's like... So

I fell into this job because of TikTok, like coaching-wise. Like, I have a therapy license, limited

permit now, but, like, I've been a coach for now almost three years. And, you know, sometimes I say things

and I give tips and mitigations that help people's day-to-day. But most of the time, it's just people realizing they're

not alone and realizing that, like, a lot of their behavior is normal. And once you're able to, like, like,

uh, what's the word, psychoeducate

about what symptom that is of ADHD, right? Then it becomes like, you can connect every

aspect of your life to a symptom of ADHD. Then you're totally normal in the

way that you do things. It's an interesting perspective because something that I've dealt with as an autistic individual has

been that a lot of my weaknesses and a lot of my strengths can be attributed to me being autistic.

On the other hand, sometimes I'm kind of like not content with the status quo. Maybe just because I am

difficult with something because of my autism doesn't mean that I want it to necessarily be that way. How do

you help folks resolve and reconcile some areas where they want to be better at something, but maybe their ADHD

can be getting in the way? Great question, Shae. That's an awesome question. I would, I would say that I,

I, I use a lot of cognitive

behavioral methods there

when it comes to like, okay, like let's... Like, why is this so, why is this so important to

you? Let's really break this down. And sometimes it gets to a point where they're like, "I have,

let's say, like, shame around not being able to do this thing." But, like, big-picture-wise,

it's, it's a lot of, it's a lot of talking them through what makes this important and

why it's a priority. That would be my go-to for times that I'm like,

there's not really like a go-to solution or go-to mitigation. Sometimes your brain is just your brain, and, like, we

have to... It's not, it's not about like we have to live with it because obviously it's hard, right? And

there are things that we have to do to manage our feelings around it, right? But, like,

we kind of do have to live with it, you know? It's, it's, um, i- it, to, to put it

harshly and bluntly. And so, how do we manage our feelings around it more so than if we can't solve

the problem directly, how do we manage our feelings around not being able to solve

the problem? Is... Something that I've really struggled with talking to other people about

has been kind of breaking the news to them that sometimes it could be something that they really want to

do, they really want to do a job, do an activity, do a thing, but maybe they can't

do it, or it would cause them, like, significant amounts of difficulty or trauma to do so. But on the

other hand, sometimes that

can also kind of scratch the itch and make them say, "Okay, maybe I actually don't want this so badly

because it's such a possibly traumatizing experience." And that can be really insightful and, like, educating for people. Yeah.

One of... Someone who I've mentored in the past, they've, like, really said, "I really wanna do this occupation.

I really wanna do this for the rest of my life." And I'm like, "Okay, maybe you should, like, look

into what it takes to actually do that, what you need for education, a license, et cetera." And

a week or so later they come back to me and they're like, "No, I'm not doing it anymore. It's,

I don't... I, I can't do that. Not that I don't want to, but I'm not capable of it." That's

really hard to talk about, frankly. Yeah, I think a lot of, a lot of people with

at least ADHD, right? I don't know how much I can speak towards, uh, ASD in this regard, but

many ADHD brains tend to not

plan

at

all, right? There's no, like, there's no planning aspect to anything that they do. And so a lot of people

are like, "I wanna do this," without realizing that there's a whole list of stuff you gotta

do to be able to do it, right? And, like, it's... It can be as major, as significant as, like,

I need...... to have this job. Or it can be as minor as, like, I just want to get this

one project done, right? And how do we plan around

the project when, let's say, you forget your password, right? And then, like, what do we do when we forget

our password? How do we, like... Because forgetting a password, it's like, okay, now I gotta hit forgot password,

I gotta reset it, I gotta, like, check my email. It's like a- there's like a five-step process to, like,

recover a password that you forgot. And that's just to, like, get started, right? And sometimes- Mm-hmm. ... to an

ADHD brain, if there's any delay in that, if there... Like, let's say, have you ever, have you ever forgotten

your password and then you ask

for a password reset and then the email doesn't come through, like, immediately and you're like, there's no email coming

through? Like, what do you do? Completely. I'll go

do something else and I'll- Yeah, yeah. ... I'll come back to it in, like, 40 minutes.

You are, yep. You move on, right? And then the link's expired. Yes, right? Because

th- the ADHD brain is so used to that immediate gratification, that hit of dopamine, that,

like, any sort of waiting is like every second is torture, right? And so, how do we... A lot of

my clients, I sit with them and I make a plan, like, how do we get this done and how

do we account for the snags that you're gonna hit ov- inevitably, right? And

how do we make sure that, like, this isn't overwhelming, right? Because lists of things, because ADHD is time-blind,

are overwhelming 'cause you don't have the, you don't have the other half of the equation

of, like, how m- how much time do I have? You just see a list and you're like, since your

brain is now

a clock all the time, it's either now or not now, you're like, "I gotta do all this right now?"

Like that's what your brain is subconsciously saying

when you read a big list and that's what leads to overwhelm, right? So, all that being said, planning

for ADHD is super important. It's the most important thing and it's something that

we inherently do not do because we're not... It doesn't feel like we're moving the ball forward

at all. It doesn't give us a hit of dopamine

and it just over- if anything, it overwhelms us 'cause of time-blindness.

I've started playing the New York Times games and one of them is Pips, and sometimes I'm

really good at it 'cause I'll, like, sit down. It's, like, basically we have to arrange dominoes in a way

that you have to, like, satisfy certain conditions, like the dominoes add to six, the dominoes are greater than four,

et cetera. And I talk, I do have a bunch of my friends and one of them is like, if

I step back and think about it and really, like, evaluate everything before I do it, I do really well.

But if I jump right into it and kind of brute force it, then I actually end up taking longer.

And that really resonates with me here. I think sometimes there's two halves to my own brain, and I'm sure

for every ADHDer's brains too, where you can either brute force a task and just kind of, like, charge right

in and just wanna get it done, but maybe it doesn't get done easily, versus step back, think, evaluate, and

then do it, and then it's done quicker. But it's, it's kind of like thinking about how much time are

you actually spending doing the thing versus preparing to do the thing? I think that can sometimes be tough for

neurodiverse folks. God, preparing to do the thing is, is brutal. It's hard. But, like, how often, like how often

are you saying you're brute forcing this domino game, Pips? How often are you brute forcing it? I would say,

like, half the time I kind of just brute force it. It's- And it doesn't go well. Like, you know

that if you do so. No, I'll, I'll clear it and I'll, like, really reevaluate it. I'm like, "What am

I doing wrong here?" Or, like, I'll, like, I'll miss a number or I'll misread a number. I often misread

the numbers, which is actually more of an autism thing, honestly. And that's frustrating

to me. Yeah.

But, like, the brute force part of it, right? No matter how much you know in your

brain that brute forcing it won't... It'll only make it worse, you still do it because your brain

is in now mode

and doesn't think about the past- Yeah. ... or future in that regard,

right? And it just- I wanna beat my friends. That's what's more important to me. Yeah, I wanna beat my

friends. It's competition. And I wanna start now. I wanna start. I wanna, like, I wanna get going,

right? Our brains move too fast for planning sometimes. All the time. Yeah. Not sometimes. Our

brains move too fast for planning and so when, when you have to sit with the plan, it's really uncomfortable.

And so that's why a lot

of times I'm, like, forcing, not forcing,

but like, really trying to get my clients to, like, let's sit and make a

plan for the week until next week, because that is the thing that's like, when you go into work, right,

and you don't have a list, it's... Especially on, like a Monday, right? Let's say, like a Monday

morning. You stare at your screen and your eyes glaze over. Check your email and if there's nothing in your

email, you're like, "What now?" Right? Like, your email dictates your day. You don't know what to do on that

Monday, you're all foggy, right? And so, like, I tell all my clients, like, "On Friday before you leave, you're

in work mode still," right? So just, like, prioritize next week, prioritize what you're gonna do on Monday

at least, at the very least. Just like, what are you gonna do on Monday when you come in?

All right. That way, when you're in on Monday, you're foggy brained, you don't really know, you don't really know

what's going on no matter what, right? You can still sit down at your desk, see your list, right? And

then know where to start in some form

so that you can have, like, a decently productive Monday where you're not dependent on any urgent emails

or urgent tasks that are coming up in front of you, right? And then you can still move the ball

forward

in some way. I did it all the time. Like, I'll set reminders in Slack. I'll say, like, "I'm not

gonna do this right now, but I will do this in, like, a couple

hours or tomorrow and I'll just really, like, think deeply about it." Really sm- ... Yeah. Um,

and then, and then, like, on Monday, then I have a list of things I have to do. So, like,

I have a list of things- It's great. ... in my Slack right now, which actually really helps me just

then work my way down the list. So you're

saying you, you, you message yourself and it's like a time... You can, you can schedule out messages to yourself?

That's, that, that too. It's a different thing. But like in Slack, I can set a reminder to come back

to a message in, like, three hours or tomorrow or next week, et cetera. So like, right now

in my to-do list, I have six items that I have to look at that I've marked as being, needing

to be done today. Yeah. At the same time, in my own personal life, I will often do what you

just said. I will schedule messages. And that's more to autism, that's more to forgetfulness in me. But

I will be like, "I need to send this message out 'cause I don't wanna forget to do it later."

But it's like an inappropriate time to send this message if it's Slack or a text.

So I will schedule send it so that way, like the, the knowledge that I have to do it has

left my brain, but then the Slack or the text or whatever it is just takes over and actually does

it when I say so. I am a religious-... schedule sender for Slack and for texts. I love it. It

is such a compatible feature of how my brain works, 'cause I get more, like, intrusive, invasive thoughts.

I c- I call them, like, Shay Thoughts. That send later feature? That send later feature is a godsend.

I love it. The only thing is you can't, you can't send later to yourself. I've discovered that the other

day. I do reminders. So I have Android, so I will just, like say to my phone, like, "Set a

reminder for XXX time," and then it'll come up- Yeah. ... on my phone. Which is, which functions the same

way for me. Sometimes, I'll, like, send a voice memo to myself, or I will just set a reminder to

myself to look at something. And in general, like, it's on my phone. Um, that's not gonna go away. Or

it'll, it'll come up on my watch. Like, I have a couple of ways to really get that information, like,

in my face. That's great. That's pretty good. Yeah. That sounds really, that sounds

, sounds like you have a, you have a system down and that's why- It

works. ... you have such a successful operation over here. I mean, it, it helps. Like, it's absolutely not what

I would call is perfect, but I don't think perfect is even achievable. But I, I thrive, like, I get

by in life. Someone yesterday asked me, like, "What does it mean to thrive?" And I'm like, "I feel like

I'm thriving when I have everything I need to do my job or to just operate in life." And I

feel like I have the right tools that I have right now. Like, could some things be better? Sure, but

that's always gonna be true, no matter what. Like, do I wish I had a chocolate bar in my hand?

Yes. Do I need it right now? No. That won't really make or break me being able to thrive, but

it might make me happier and, like that short-term dopamine you were talking about. Yeah. That's a r- that's a

really good perspective to have, right? In general, I mean, perfectionism is such a killer for ADHD,

and I have a few clients

that fall into that category of, like, "What if it's not perfect?"

And there's, because there's so much... I don't know if you know this, uh, there's... So ADHD kids growing up

hear 20,000 more negative prompts on average,

right, than their non-ADHD peers. Like, in school? Throughout all- Throughout school, yes.

Right. From parents and

teachers combined, because it's just, like, every day. It's every single day. You're like, uh- Overwhelmed, I'm sure. Yeah. And

so, when you get told every day that you're doing something wrong in, in, like, most aspects of

life, like you go into s-

You go into school and the teacher's like, "Your folder's disorganized," then you go to, uh, and, and

then you can't fit in in, in certain... You're playing this game wrong. You're, you're

saying this too loud. You're, like, being too much. Like, "Can you, like, just sit still? Look

at everyone else in the room and look what they're doing. Are you doing the same thing?" Like, stuff like

that, where it's like, there's a lot of shame in how an ADHD brain acts in general, especially in a

school setting, right? Where you can't really be individualistic. There's no option for that. It's just like, "Now, we'll pick

you up, we'll put you into this place, you'll sit down, you'll shut up, you'll do what we tell you,"

right? And then when, when the next signal comes, "We'll pick you up again, we'll put you in another place,

and you'll sit down, you'll shut up, and we'll do, you'll do what we tell you." And by veering away

from that, you get a lot of negative feedback. And then, there's that negative feedback loop that leads to, like,

now, now, I have to overcompensate. It's either overcompensation and perfectionism, or it's like, "If I slip up, I just

don't want the negative feedback. I, I, I've, I've gotten so much of it." Like, there's like a, um...

Part of it's like, "I wanna prove them wrong, that I can, that I can do the things that I

do in my way." And then the other part of it is like, "Man, I just only hear negative feedback

and, like, I need to be perfect so I can avoid hearing negative feedback." Big quote

that c- has stuck out to me, especially for folks like us is, like, "Don't let perfect be the enemy

of good." I have been in the same shoes. Uh, people are, like, giving me a hard

time for something not being perfect. It's not to their standard, but also, the standard that I have for myself

could be different from the standard that they have for themselves. For an ADHDer, like for a high school student

getting out of bed in the morning, going to school, going to class, and doing all those things, that might

be a huge accomplishment that, uh- It is. ... most people take for granted. It is. School sucks for ADHDers.

It's so hard. Like, I work with mostly teenagers, kids and teens and things like, and their parents, right? Uh,

that's a big part of my client base. And like, it takes a lot, like, the, you know, the spoon

theory? Mm-hmm. Yeah. So it takes a lot of spoons for them to just even get up and, like, go

to school and sit there and mask. It's a lot of work. And what happens is, they're coming home feeling

like they, they

did a lot, right? Because not only are you masking, but you're also constantly thinking, 'cause your brain moves quickly,

so it feels like even if you're doing nothing, you're always moving, you're always doing something, right? It feels productive,

right? So you're tired, right? You just masked all day. You're tired. And then you come home, and there's a

transition time that you have to still do more homework, right? In a new environment that's now

more distracting. You got chores. And you have chores and you have all these expectations, and then when you do

them, the people that you want positive feedback from where you know, your bull- these parents, right? And

guardians, whatever. You know that you worked your ass off, you've worked super hard to get this done, right?

And then all they're saying is like, "What do you mean?" It's like, "You just, like, went to school and

did the dishes. Like, how hard is that? I did that every day." You know? And- It's exhausting- When that-

... to compare. Yeah, it's exhausting, because we're, we're powering through every second

that we are not getting dopamine in our brain

is torture, right? And so when I'm doing the dishes, if I have to wash my parents' dishes or something,

right, and it's not causing... It's not creating dopamine in my brain, my brain is constantly, every second telling me,

"You gotta stop doing this. This, this sucks. Stop doing..." Like, there's something over there.

And then, all the symptoms kind of combine to make a really powerful, really convincing person inside your brain

going, "There's a dopamine shortage in your brain, you gotta find something." The time blindness says, "Finding something, like

that thing that you wanna do, it'll only take, like, a second, and then you'll get right back to the,

the thing that you have to... You'll get right back to the dishes," right? "It'll only take, like, a second."

And then the lack of future thinking in your brain, in the ADHD brain is thinking like, "Okay, like,

what if you d-" Uh, like, "You're, there's no way you're gonna fall into this rabbit hole, and if you

do fall into a rabbit hole, like, what's gonna happen? Like, who cares if your mom is mad at you?"The,

and it, it, like, almost doesn't hit you because there's a lack of future thinking. And then motivation is based

off of the ability to see the future in general, right? If you can't see the future, if you can't

see the result of what is going to happen, then you are not gonna be motivated to do the thing

to get there. Right. Like, there has to be something at the finish line, otherwise what's the point? Right? Yes.

And that's a human thing, like, throughout, overall. So the ADHD brain cannot see the future, right? Can't see the

future consequences of their actions. So it's not just an impulsivity thing. It's, like, the same thing where

it's like, "I don't have to do the dishes right now. I'll do it, I'll do it when I'm done

doing the thing that's pulling me away." And what's, what makes it

even harder is that let's

say you get past one thought that's like, "Hey, you should go, stop doing the dishes and go, like, learn

this song on piano or something that, that'll bring you joy," right?

If you go, "No, no, no, I can't. I have to do the dishes,"

and then you keep doing the dishes, the next second, your brain again is like, "Yo. Stop doing the dishes."

It's constant. "There's a video game that you wanna play." It's like every second you are powering

through these thoughts to do the thing that you don't want to do. So it's, it

is tiring and, like- Exhausting. ... people that don't have that

condition will never understand how tiring that is because they just see you doing the dishes and then

stop doing the dishes, then you do the dishes again, then you stop and then you don't complete it.

Why didn't you complete the project? What happened? I don't know. I just, like, got distracted. It's, it's exhausting. Yeah.

You, you talk about time blindness and, like, my wife and I definitely, like, disagree on how long it takes

for things to go. I'll be like, "Oh, it'll take a half hour." And she's like, "No, it'll take longer."

And she's normally right. And I, I always wished that I would be right every once in a while, but

I would say, like, three quarters of the time she's right and I'm wrong. And that's t- that's fine. Like,

that's why we're married. Yeah. She, she's

better at things that I'm not, and- I'm so glad that you have that. ... she really completes me in

that regard. So glad that you have that opposite for you, that you can, you can sort of

depend on each other. And I'm sure that there are things that you

provide that she does not, that she benefits from. Yeah, like I, I am, I think, like, we both complement

each other in a lot of ways. I think sometimes I can... It's interesting with my brain

'cause I think I can kind of

look at things and really see, like, the bigger picture. I can kind of look and help with, like,

anxiety and things that are, like, out of my control. There are some things that I do where I'm like,

"I'm doing my best effort here and if it doesn't work out that way, like, I did my best

and I put in 100% and I can't be upset that

I tried and I failed at something or I tried, it just, just didn't work."

Like, I just have to kind of keep on keeping on. Like, with the time blindness, like, we were driving

from Boston to New York, uh, a week or so ago. And a drive that normally takes... With zero traffic

it takes three hours. With traffic, which is most often the case, it's, like, three and a half, three. The

v45 is unrealis- is, is, like, uncommon. It took us five hours with so much traffic. Oh my God. And

she was like, "It's gonna take us five hours." I'm like, "No it's not. There's no way." And then it

did take us, like, 4:45. I'm like... She's like... We, we were both

like, "I'm not mad that I'm wrong. I'm mad at the state of it and that it's just unrealistic." But

in that moment I was like, "She was right." She was right from the moment we

got in the car it would take five hours, even though the ETA said, like, four when we got in

it. I was like, "There's that time blindness again." Is there any part of you... And it's, it's funny 'cause

there's a, there's that same lack of future

thinking that might be stopping you from being like, "You know what? Maybe just, like, every time she says

that something is gonna take us over an hour, I g- I should just, like, blindly trust the person that,

that is not time-blind." Like, there's no- I think some of it is emotional more than anything. I think, like,

emotionally in my gut I feel just this, like, disbelief I would say that a drive like this that I've,

a drive that I've done, like, hundreds of times at least, like, could ever take five hours unless there was,

like, a bad accident or bad construction. Mm-hmm. I would believe you if you said it would take four hours.

On, like, a Friday afternoon, like, I would believe you if you said four hours. I wouldn't find that so

hard to believe. But five hours, I just feel like that's in- dis-, I was in disbelief. I'm, "There's no

way." And it was. It is, yeah. So it's, I think is more emotional for me than it was,

like, not being able to process the possibility. So when you're talking to your wife about how long things take,

are you often having this discussion of like, "I think it's gonna take this amount of time. She thinks it's

gonna take this amount of time. I'm gonna insist that it's gonna take this amount of time." Or is there

a part of you that just, like, defers time

to her? I would say, like, more than half the time I defer to her, to be honest

with you. Yeah.

That's, it's And I just say, like, "You know what?" Like, "I'm feeling stubborn in my brain right now, but

I know that, like, I feel better going along with

your estimate just because I think it's gonna be more accurate anyway." Even if I really believe differently, I

just need to let the stubbornness go. And in rare circumstances I'll double down, like this drive that we did,

'cause I was just more emotionally in disbelief

and less logically in disbelief. Um, but that, which is such a fascinating conversation between the

two of us about the, that... We do it, we talk about it often. But also, like, there's a, there

is a part o- uh, that, of, of the ADHD brain that's hard to... And perhaps ASD as

well, but it's hard to, like, overcome the, like, "You know what? Maybe you're right." Lik- it's ha- it's hard

to have that, that thought, right? And it might be rejection sensitivity is part of it, and that we're used

to just, like... But again, it's that negative feedback loop that leads to it, but... I don't have an issue

with, like, admitting that I'm wrong to my wife of all people.

Yeah. I think I have, sometimes have an issue

of... Like, when I know that I'm right and, like, I am right, I have a hard time, I think,

really being thoughtful about articulating those facts and basing it in reality. So I don't come off as being

stubborn, but logic and fact-oriented. Because

on the autism side, I can be a stubborn person. I can really double down

and raise my voice, and I don't wanna do any of those things. I need to, like, take a step

back and say, like, "How can I convince and compel her of this fact rather than me just b- doing

it because I said so?" Or, "This is the way that it is because I said so."

And I think between the two of us it helps me to think about things that way, and then it

goes into time blindness. It goes into, like, problem-solving. It goes into, like, "Oh, I have to do these steps

to accomplish this goal."... because I can see, I can see that far out

ahead and then I dread it, and then I don't wanna do it. And I'm like, "Okay,

I gotta put on my big boy pants and just do it, even if I don't want to." Uh, something,

something actually stood out there

that you said, but I forgot what it was. W- we're get- we're getting-

we're get- I'm getting a little coaching right now, I love

it. No, something stood out there that you said in regards to, like, it might've been,

it might've been the reje- uh, it might've been, I forgot what it was, I'm sorry. So, uh, I think,

like, one of the biggest traits that I have that I'm really proud of is my ability to, like, look

at a problem and recognize that I'm feeling very impassioned

about it, but be able to, like, compartmentalize and put it to the side just for the moment. Because

there's the burning fire in me that needs to prove that I'm right- Yeah. ... but then I have to

say, "No, this situation calls for a little bit more decorum," and I have to prove that this is the

way that it is with

clear head and not being very fired up. 'Cause I can get fired up, but that doesn't do

me any favors. It doesn't happen very often where I forget what I was gonna say and then the next

thing that's said by the person

I'm talking to is, like, exactly what I was gonna say. Like, that's exactly what I was gonna say, dude,

that's crazy. No, that's, I- I'm, I was gonna say, what I was gonna say, it was a version of

that, is, like, it is so hard to learn

to walk away in those moments. So hard.

Right? So it's amazing that you're able to compartmentalize those things, right? Even when you're feeling emotional about

it. And that is such a, uh, it's a, a big growth point for a lot of my clients is

like, when do we walk away, right? How do we learn to use our cool down strategies,

and when do we know when we're dysregulated? That's a really big one. How do we know when

we're dysregulated, and then what do we do about being dysregulated?

Right? The three key regulators are hobbies, exercise, and connection. Those are, like, the three things that will center you

every time. If you talk to an old friend, right? If you, uh, if you get exercise,

or if you do something you really love, right? That is not screen-based. Anything that's not screen-based. Screen-based is cheap

dopamine. It will only, it will turn off immediately with the screen, right? As soon as the screen goes off,

dopamine goes off. But if you're doing something

that you love, right? That level of dopamine is going to center you,

right? After the fact that you do it, right? You exercise, you feel really good afterwards,

you feel a little bit more clear-headed, and now you're ready to do the thing that you don't wanna do.

It's a similar thing to regulation of, like, you exercise, now I'm regulated. I found my re- I, so

I just have to know what it feels like in my body to be dysregulated, know that no matter what

my brain is telling me, 'cause our dysregulated brains say, "This is a really good decision." Right? Our dysregulated

brains are so unbelievably confident,

right? But almost every time, they're wrong. They're, like, confident about the wrong thing. They're like, "This is the,

the exact right thing I have

to do."

So when you know that you're dysregulated, you also have to know that fact and know and, like, okay,

maybe, maybe because I have this, like, pit in my stomach, that is

the feeling I get when I am dysregulated, when I'm angry, and I should not make decisions now. Right now,

I should go for a walk, I should talk to, I should, I could call a trusted friend, I could

go to the gym, I could play an instrument, I can do, like, the thing that makes me happy, as

long as it's not screen-based, which, which only just, sort of, like, ene- delays the inevitable. It just, it wires

you up. Yes. Right? So all that being said, right? That is such a massive skill that

I t- that I teach to a lot of my clients,

and that you have somehow mastered and learned to c- learned to compartmentalize. So, like, what did you do to

learn to be able to, like, see when you're dysregulated and when you have to just, like, compartmentalize it and

walk away? Honestly, a lot of brute forcing, like, a lot of trial and error, and a lot of experiencing

dysregulation. I only really lea- I only really lease- I only really recently learned the word for dysregulation or what

it meant to me, because I'd been experiencing dysregulation for decades or as long as I've been alive, but I

never had, like, a word for it. I never had a term for it until, like, the last, like, four

or five years where I'm like, "Oh,

this is why being in a loud place or a bright place really bothers me, because my brain can't handle

the information, it can't handle the senses. And so I have to, like, compensate to keep up

with it, and then I just shut down if I'm too overwhelmed or too dysregulated." And for me, that's more

a sensory sense. Sense if I'm feeling overwhelmed with what's coming in from my brain, or socially, it could be

overwhelmed. And- Yeah. ... I had to ask myself,

like, how do I want to... How can I build up a level of tolerance or level of comfort with

that, and then also how can I recognize when I'm getting close to that point and try to adjust and

compensate before it gets there? And one of the things that I really hated, one of the sensations that I

really didn't like was getting very fired up, very stubborn, doubling down. Kinda

having, like, a plant your foot on the ground and say no moment.

I didn't like the way that it made me feel, so I had to figure out how to address

moments where I was approaching that level of hot-headedness and try to back off before it spiraled out of control.

And that's, like, one form in which, like, my autistic meltdowns have taken, and since I have been more conscious

of that

feeling, I haven't had a meltdown in years. It's been a very long time since if I had, like,

what I consider to be a meltdown. Wow. And it's weird. I feel a little bit of imposter syndrome

when I talk about that openly, because I haven't had a, like, what I would call, like, a meltdown

in a long time. But I do feel really good and at peace that I just haven't

had that

level of, like, lack of emotional control. I think that's really what it boils down to for me, is that

I hate the feeling of not having my emotions in control and kind of having it snowball wildly. So what

was the thing, what is the thing for you, if you don't mind

answering, what is the thing for you that's, th- like, what is the indicator

that, that perhaps you need to, like, walk away?

If I feel like all of my thoughts or my conscious thoughts, like, magnetizing or focusing on one specific thing

or

starting to, like, form a black hole of gravity, I'm like, "Okay, like, I can sense I'm getting too hung

up on something or I'm getting too focused. I need to

go take a walk. I need to move or remove myself from the situation. I need to go do something

else because if I stay in this physical situation or in this environment online, whatever it is, I'm going

to do something that I regret."" And I think just, like, recognizing when something is, like, becoming

more and more of an invasive, intrusive thought in my mind. What is the difference between an invasive

thought and just, like, something you really care about and really wanna get through to someone else, or like

something that you're hyper... Like... I guess, uh, it's a- it's a tough question to word 'cause... What's

the difference between, I guess, an invasive thought and, like, uh, I guess a hyperfixation, for you? Uh, an invasive

thought for me is just something that kind of like... It feels more like a weed. It feels like I

have less of a rationale or less logic behind why I'm attached to it. I'm just kind of like grabbing

on to something because it's like scratching an itch, it's dopamine. It's just satisfying some maybe temporary urge. But hyperfixation

could be a long-term thing. It could be a special interest. That could be something that I care about, that

I invest in over time, that clearly has some sort of impact on my life, my friends, et cetera.

I would say those are two biggest differences. Like, a dopamine hit is like browsing Instagram Reels. That's like picking

at a- a scab. But a special interest of mine would be like Dungeons & Dragons, running, things that I

do, like, day in and day out, that I do constantly, that I would say I, like, invest in. That's

really such a good way to look at it, right? Like, if there is emotion tied to the hyperfixation

in some way, and it's not something that you've

been prone to

focusing on in your past, you're able to put

that together and then be like, "This is not something that I normally do, so this is probably not

a good state of mind to be in and I have to go regulate." That is massive, right? And I'm

totally gonna take that for my clients 'cause that's like... I mean, I- I have a lot of clients that,

like, they hyperfocus on... This is very common for ADHD, they hyperfocus on people, right? Crushes that they have, friends,

or like, like personal, like dating, right? Like, "Why is this person ghosting me?"

It's such a- a amazing thought for dopamine. It's so good at creating dopamine

in your brain when you're, like, trying to decipher all the reasons why this person ghosted you,

and like, "We had such a good time. What could they possibly be thinking? What's wrong with me?" And, like,

those thoughts, man, they provide

so much dopamine

for people, right? So much- It becomes like a storm in your mind. Yeah, it becomes a

storm and then you wanna act on it and find a solution, and then the solution never works, right? "Oh,

I- I'll text him one more time. Maybe they'll answer this time." Right? Something like that, right? But what,

I guess, what I'm getting at is, like, if it's something that's like

dating or if it's something that's, like, not a thing that you know that you're passionate about,

then it's going to be a flavor of the week, for the most part. Yeah. Do you have any words

of wisdom for any ADHD-ers who are out there and listening and wondering, "How can I kind of take control

back of my life?" The main thing is you're- you're gonna be fine,

in general. You're gonna be okay. And it's not always as dire as it seems in the moment,

right? And for, you know, typically my- my audience is also, like, kids and teens and their parents, right? Like,

your kid's gonna be okay, right? They're gonna be fine. And they are not put in an environment currently that

is serving their needs. So once they get into an environment that serves their needs, they're going to be really

good at their job. They're gonna be really good at what they do. They're gonna be very successful.

And if you are an

adult that is maybe in a job that you don't like, or you're, like, trying to still navigate the world,

right? And trying to navigate what you wanna do with your life and- and- and what gives, what

brings you joy and

how you can sort of monetize that, like, it's fully possible.

You just gotta like, uh, you just keep going. Honestly, the biggest thing, Shay, is like,

what changed my life is making content. Just, like, make- make content about stuff that you're passionate

about. It's a long-term thing. It gives you focus. Yeah. I have, and I don't know how much time we

have, but, like, I have some clients that are struggling with the job search, and friends as well.

Like, the job market's really hard right now. And it's like, keep searching

for jobs and keep doing your thing, but also, if you want to create your own life and perhaps

have a- a chance at monetizing something that you like, you gotta start posting about it. You gotta start doing

something with it, that you're- you're publicly talking about it, right? Because it's- it's a classic, like, you miss 100%

of the shots you don't take. It might g- it might garner nothing, right? But it will definitely garner nothing

if you don't. Yeah. No harm in trying. Yeah. There's no harm in trying. And then, like, you'll realize you're

exposing yourself to de-masking and being yourself and realizing like, yeah, you're not alone in this. And just like, just

like me, man. Once I, once I started posting, I was

like, "There's a lot of people that feel this way. I can keep going and

people will relate to it, and now I'm not alone and now I can be more comfortable de-masked."

And so I think what you're doing is really cool with this podcast in regards to, like, getting people in

industries, you know, high-paying industries or tech industries or- or just white-collar industries in general, to realize that, like,

"Oh, I'm not alone.

I am able to do what neurotypicals can do, in some ways better than they can do it." And there

are, there are drawbacks to being neurodivergent, but they're made up for completely in if you are doing

the thing that you really love. You're gonna be, you're gonna be the best asset you- to any team

if it's something that you love. That is an excellent sendoff for this episode. I'm so happy

to get a little bit of coaching, to learn more about you, and really go over the ADHD journey. Jordan-

Yes. ... thank you so much. This was- I appreciate it. ... an incredible conversation. Thank you, Shay. Enjoy.

Thank you.