Accessibility Advocacy and Self-Expression with Meenakshi Das

Welcome to the Autistic Techie podcast. I'm your host, Shay Belski, an autistic software engineer and tech lead. We're

going to dive into the world of tech careers from a neurodivergent perspective, interviewing guests from all

different corners of the industry

and empowering you to be a better self-advocate.

Welcome back to Autistic Techie. Today's guest is Meenakshi Das, a software engineer too at Microsoft, the vice-chair at Teach

Access, which is a nonprofit working to bridge disability skill gaps between education and the industry. Meenakshi is

as much of an accessibility advocate as I am, if not definitely more so. She has a speech impediment,

which is a really interesting part about neurodiversity that I'm excited to talk about, and I really

wanted to make sure that she got a chance to bring her perspectives and voice to Autistic Techie for National

Disability Employment Awareness Month. Meenakshi, welcome to Autistic Techie.

Hey, it's so nice to meet you. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. Thank you.

We've known each other from Disability:IN from the Next Gen Leaders back in 2019. What have you been up to

since then? You've been at Microsoft, you've been with Teach Access. What has accessibility looked like for you

over the last couple of years?

Yeah. So, uh, currently I am a software engineer at Microsoft. I've been here for the last four years now.

Uh, and, uh, although my main job at Microsoft is, like, not, uh,

in

accessibility,

uh, I still do accessibility

on the side, uh, to make sure whatever product we are, are

developing

is made with,

uh, accessibility, uh,

in mind.

Um, this just goes to show that,

uh, you don't have to

work in accessibility full-time to make an, uh, uh, impact for people with, uh,

disabilities. Uh,

um, whatever you work as, whatever role you have,

uh, you,

uh, uh, you can, uh,

use your skills to make an

impact in accessibility.

Uh,

that is also

the, uh,

mission of the nonprofit, uh, that I serve as the, uh,

w- w- vice-chair of. It's called Teach, Teach Access. Um,

their, um,

mission is that, uh, every student, they should know

what, uh, accessibility is. Um,

w- we don't want to create

e- uh, eh- experts

in

the accessibility field. We just want students to know what it is, like have the basic knowledge. So yeah, I

think that's all that I've

been doing from a few years and yeah. It's awesome to see that Microsoft has such a huge accessibility champion

in Jenny Lay-Flurrie as the chief accessibility officer

over there. She has a hearing impairment. She is partially deaf.

And seeing someone with a disability at such a high level reporting into the CEO is a massive testament

to Microsoft's own accessibility

inclusion and their policies around it. How does Microsoft support individual engineers and individual employees

in making Microsoft a more inclusive, accessible product

and

company? Yeah. Uh,

Microsoft

has d- d-

definitely been

an amazing place to work at. Uh, especially

since it, uh, it was my first job from college, uh, and I could have

not asked

for a better position. And

not

only it

has he- helped me, uh, to develop my software engineering skills, but

also

my accessibility skill- skills,

even

though my, mmm,

my

f- full-time role, like, is not in the, uh,

accessibility space.

Um,

so for example,

I serve

as the accessibility champion for my team to make sure whatever products we are shipping, they are accessible. Uh, and

I don't have to, um, fight to make this ha-

uh, happen 'cause a part

of the, uh, culture to make sure whatever we ship, it is accessible. So, um,

not only that. We, we have so,

m- m- many resources to learn more about, uh,

accessibility.

Uh, we have, uh,

h- ha- um,

ha- uh, hackathons,

which, uh, uh, encourage, uh,

uh, accessibility projects.

Uh, we have, uh...... employee resource group who, um,

chair

of, focused on, uh,

d- disability. So, yeah.

There's a lot of ways

y- like, you

can m- m- make a,

make an impact in this field, uh, even i- if you don't work in accessibility full time here. What's important

to, that I heard was that you don't have to fight for accessibility. It's a part of the culture.

It's a part of what Microsoft wants to accomplish, and every individual is bought into that success. In your own

capacity as a individual with a disability, how do you talk about

it with other people in your life, or on your team, or just in general?

Yeah. Um,

so I think, um, 'cause I do have

a speech, uh,

d- d- disability, um, I- I think, um, 'cause I have the,

uh, personal,

uh,

experience,

uh, I

do understand these things better.

Uh,

so, uh, whenever, uh,

if

I'm, like, talking to my

friend, uh, um,

like, uh, anybody else,

uh, the-

they might not have the same knowledge, uh, the same, uh, uh,

experience. So, uh, I think the

first thing

that's very important is, uh, just to be patient, uh, because, um,

these skills, especially

accessibility,

they are n- they- they are, like, n-

n- n- not really taught in schools so, so much. Uh,

Teach Access, they are w-

w- w- working to change that. They want,

um, schools to teach these skills,

but, uh, it is still a work in progress. So, I- I think the first thing that

I do is to really be patient

a- and then, uh,

accept that we have a gap here. Um,

uh, students, uh, uh, early graduates,

they, they don't have the knowledge yet. Uh,

they all are still trying to learn.

Um,

the ... And then yeah, w-

so you do know that,

uh, uh, y-

you can just go from there,

uh,

point them to resources, to,

uh,

personal experiences and stuff like that.

Yeah. How have you thought about your own journey with a person, as a person with a disability?

I think your comfort level talking about it is exceptional. I know a lot of people who don't have the

same level of confidence discussing their disability as openly and honestly as you do. Where does that stem from? Yeah.

I think, like, I spent m- m- majority of my childhood, like, in, in a really big shell.

Uh, I was

very m- much in my, um,

uh, in my own, uh, small, uh, c- cocoon sort of. Uh, a-

and,

um, think, like, what really changed for me is

when, at the,

the age of

17, I,

I decided to come

to the States, uh, to start my, uh, bachelor's degree,

uh, all by

myself. Didn't have my parents

there. Um,

and, uh,

w- when I was back home,

I would do, um,

a l-

I ha- uh, had my parents to do my stuff

for me.

If I, um, if, uh, if I, say, wanted to make a phone call, m-

th-

they would just do that for me. But, um,

I came here,

I, like, uh, really had

to be very i- dependent. So, I, like, had to,

uh, get used to speaking

even though

it meant

that I would, like, not be fluent,

because I,

like, I literally had no choice but I had to talk. So,

think,

um,

let's

say it was just due to circumstances that, like, I had to keep talking,

and

then I, like, ha-

had to keep, uh,

advocating for myself,

um, 'cause I had,

um ... nobody

else to do that for me. What I'm hearing is that you had parents who were very supportive and wanted

you to be able to be confident, but also there was an element of need there. You had to

be able to talk, had to be able to communicate.

Kind

of like masking in a way, kind of like putting yourself out of your comfort zone, but it's because you

had to, not because you wanted

to. Yeah.

Uh,

like, I am glad you brought up the topic of, like, masking. So, uh, I have used masking to hide

my stutter a lot of times. Uh, for example,

when I was just starting to, like, to interview for, like, uh,

a s-

s- summer

internships,

um, this was like 10 years back so it's been a while. So, at that time, I, um, I was

very embarrassed of my stutter. So I would try so hard to mask it, to choose words

that I knew, like, n-

like,

n- not be so hard for me to say. Um,

uh, the few times,

like, I was s-

s- successful,

the few

times now,

um, and then, um,

I tried to mask my stutter, uh, I would, like, not use the right words

than, um,

uh,

p-

people w- would think, "She, um,

uh, she, uh, probably

d- doesn't

speak,

sp- uh, speak English very well." So, uh,

I think,

uh, that, like, experience taught me that, uh, should try to just be who,

who I am,

trying to hide my stutter

is

like

n- not just, uh, stopping me from

g-

getting opportunities, but at the same time, 'cause, uh,

giving me so, uh, so much pain.

And I would like, um,

physically hurt to hide my stutter sometimes. So,

so, like, I just told myself, "Why do I have to go through so much

when

I can just, like, try to be who I am? I can try to ask

for accommodations, uh,

uh, then,

um, inste- in- sort of instead of trying to hide my stutter, can try to, uh, embrace who I

am." Yeah. I find that really powerful that you were

able to push

beyond other people feeling uncomfortable around you,

and you just saying, "This is me. This is who I am.

This is not only what I am with my disability, this is what I need to be successful, to be

able to

thrive and t- to be heard." What are some examples of accommodations

that you request to help you feel a little more complete in a, in your day-to-day?

Yeah. I think, uh,

when I was, uh, uh, interviewing, uh, during my college days

and stuff, uh, I would, uh,

uh, p- primarily ask for two accommodations. The first one was, uh,

getting some

extra

time 'cause, uh,

uh,

'cause my speech, uh, it can cause, uh, uh,

uh, pauses. So, uh, if I do have some extra time, I could, um, make up

for those pauses. Um,

and this second accommodation

I would ask is,

is the, uh, abil-

ti- t- the, the, uh, ability to type. So, um, if,

if, uh, if I am just having,

like, a hard time talking the whole time, uh, typing would be very helpful to, uh,

uh,

to,

to, to, to ha- uh,

to,

to help save my, uh, energy.

So, I think,

uh, th- those were the two primary accommodations that I would

request.

Uh,

and then, um,

because

I- I- I have been working

at Microsoft on the same team

s- the last four years, I think I- I have s- um,

s- sort,

sort of reached a comfort

l- level with my team

where, um, where I know that, like, if I, uh, if I am taking some time to speak,

they will be, uh,

very

understanding. So,

um, these days, I have been doing a lot of speaking

with my team

and stuff,

but they do

know that, um, if I don't

feel

l- li- like

speaking,

it is,

uh, perfectly fine to type. So, I

think, I thi- I think, um,

it is important to note here is that i-... is that,

uh, ac- uh, accommodations, they can, mm, th-

th- th- uh, th- uh, they can be very,

um, situational. Like

I may,

n-

n- n- ne- need them sometimes,

li- li- like I may not need them, uh, s-

sometimes

and the person who has

the di-

the disability, they sh- uh, mm,

they should have the right to make that, uh, determination for

themselves. I think that's interesting that you're talking about self-determination, that's a huge thing that comes up for people with

disabilities. It's, I wanna be able to choose what to do on my

own and not rely on people having to choose for me or relying on them doing so on my behalf.

When you talk with your disability, talks to other people about disability I should say, what are people's

main sources of confusion? Do they assume things about you? Do they get confused or do you generally find that

people understand and get it? What are people's

most common responses

to your disclosure of your disability? Yeah. I think the one thing

that I do get from people sometimes

is that they think that, uh, I am stuttering 'cause I am stressed. Um, I think, uh, stuttering

can definitely be, uh, uh, more, um, mm,

mo- mm-

mo- more due to stress. But at like,

th- the-

the- the- the- that's not the cause of my stutter. My str-

uh, s- stutter is still purely, uh, and, and, and,

and, and neurolo-

and neurological disorder.

It, like, has, uh, nothing to do,

uh, I am

too stressed or

I am too, mm, n- n- n- nn- nn- n- nervous

or I am trying to hide something. Uh, it is like, n- none,

n- no, n- nothing to do with that. Um,

uh, s- sometimes,

uh, e- even though, uh, people don't say it

my face, uh, they might, uh, assume that I am, mm,

I am

not, like,

smart enough, um, because, like, I have

this st- stutter, um, because

th- they might, like, think

I have a slow processing in my brain, like I can't talk because of that. So,

um, there's a lot of stereotypes

w- that, uh,

c- uh, comes to stuttering. When I was growing

up,

b-

b-

b- b- b- back in

India, um, a- like, a lot of, uh, uh,

co-

co- com- comedy movies shown there, uh, th- they would make fun for

a person who is stuttering. And then, um... Which, like, sucks, um,

because imagine,

like, a small- like,

the sm- like, the small child who has a st- a s-

this-

this stutter, they are,

uh,

watching this mo- movie where,

uh, they are making fun

o- of a guy who is stuttering, it is,

l- uh, it does hurt, uh, that small child who is watching that movie. So, I think, uh,

str- uh, stuttering has this

thing that, uh, it is not a real,

uh, d- disability or, like, just,

uh, s- something,

uh, y-

uh,

y- uh, you can get over it. I mean, sure, uh, s- some people who do a lot of speech

therapy in

their chi- uh, their childhood, they may get over it,

but

not e- everyone does. Uh, I, I, I, I have done a lot of speech therapy in my childhood too,

but I still stutter,

so, uh,

I think it, r- it's, mm,

um, it's like very important to know that. You've come a long way and you've done

a lot of things just to get you to this point, and that is still worth celebrating

and supporting as an accomplishment.

And I've also experienced people

putting

my disability down because it's either not apparent enough or it doesn't conform to what they think autism looks like,

and it sounds like you've had similar experiences with

people mischaracterizing your stutter

as not being a disability or you passing it off as something

that it isn't.

Do you wish that,

uh, people had a different understanding of that and were approaching it from a different perspective,

or w- why do you think people feel this frustrated?

Yeah.

I-

I- I think

the main thing is just having

more

e-

e- e- education about these topics, 'cause, um, don't think schools

and,

uh, uh, colleges, they are, are, a- d- teaching these topics,

uh, so much. Uh, I was speaking to one of my friends the other day,

um, and, um,

uh, then she had a

question like say, uh, uh, "How do blind people, uh, use their

phones?" Like, uh, "Can they use their phones?" And I was like, "Yeah. The- the- the- they have a software

called a screen reader,

um, uh,

um,

uh, uh, converts,

uh, uh, the- the- the text, the screen to speech, and then, uh,

the- the-

the- the- the- that's how they, uh, uh,

interact with their phones." So, uh, and then when I told her that, her mind was blown being like, "Oh

wow. I had no clue," uh-

They have no idea.

... yeah, they could use their phones. So, it is these small things, um,

because we

both, we are

so

much into the accessibility space, uh, this thing,

these

things, they seem very,

uh, common to us. We,

we know about these things. But a lot of people, they have like never heard about these things,

so how do we bridge that gap? I do think the,

the

answer is just more,

uh,

education. Education's a really important part of this all. Yeah. Like, h- not necessarily just helping people

know more, but I feel like it's, it's also okay to ask questions. I think if your friend-

Yeah.

... had

a better sense of awareness and a little bit less fear, maybe that question would've been answered sooner

had they felt like there was a safer opportunity to ask that question aloud. Maybe not to you specifically, but

to anybody who could've answered the question. And

if you could take this last moment or two to educate people and tell

them something that you wish they knew about your disability or disability in general,

what would that little nugget of information be? Yeah. I- I would just say

that like don't make,

uh, assumptions. Uh,

j- j-

just because, uh, s- s- uh,

uh, somebody has a

d- disability that,

uh, doesn't mean they can't, uh, do stuff. Um,

we,

we are as, much as,

uh,

capable of

achieving things,

uh,

like people who,

who don't have, uh,

d- disabilities.

We may use a- accommodations,

but that,

uh, doesn't mean we are like, uh, uh, l- uh, l- lesser

than you. Uh, and then

the same time, uh, try. to,

uh, educate, uh, y-

your- yourself. Um,

uh, uh,

there are some

amazing b-

b- books out there who,

uh, explain,

uh, disabilities so. well. Uh, if you go to, uh,

Instagram

or y- or y- you can find

so many follower, uh, uh, uh, y-

you, you,

you can find

so

many, uh,

influencers who, who do teach these topics. S- uh, s- yeah.

Uh, s- s- s- uh, um, so has, so just like having, uh,

o- uh,

open mind, uh, about, uh,

d-

d- disability. Don't, don't, don't be

scared of it. Those are all such important and

emotional topics. Just being, having an open mind, making sure that you're seeking to understand, and

having a little bit more empathy and understanding for people with disabilities, whether they are apparent and obvious or whether

they are not. This is a, this has been an incredible conversation, and I'm so glad I got to spend

this time with you. If people want to find you on the web, learn more about Teach Access or your

work, where can they find you? Yeah. Uh, they can find

me,

my LinkedIn,

uh, uh,

and

then my, uh,

Instagram. I'll put them in on, on the website and in the show notes. Okay. Awesome.

Thanks. This has been an incredible conversation, and I am so happy I had a chance to share this time

with you. Meena, thanks for being on Autistic Techie. Yeah, no, uh, thank you so much for having me.

This was a great experience. Yeah, like I can't wait. Thank you.